Comments on: For Novelists Who Hate Outlining

By: Cathi

Cathi — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:27:53 +0000

Don’t give up Molly! I’m a seat-of-the-pants’er who can’t outline on paper/computer to save my life. But I do think my outline through in my head. I know it inside and out before I ever turn on the computer. For me, having to do an outline would make writing a process, while sitting down and just letting the ideas fly turns it into an adventure…and much more fun. And let’s face it, if you have fun it’ll show in your writing. So, take Randy’s advice, read the books he mentions and start experimenting…find out what works best for you. Good luck!

By: Donald James Parker

Donald James Parker — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:58:17 +0000

When I was in school and the teacher would assign us a piece of writing and require an outline, I learned a simple solution: write the piece and then outline the final result. That methodology would not work well with a house or an electronics circuit board. I have grown beyond the way of a child, but if I were forced to publish an outline along with a novel (Heaven forbid), I’ll still do it backwards. Don’t try to force square projections into round apertures.

By: Morgan L. Busse

Morgan L. Busse — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:20:17 +0000

As Randy pointed out, there are many types of writers. Funny enough, I’m opposite of you. I can not write unless I know what’s going to happen. I panic and feel like I’m stumbling around in the dark without a plan. But when I have an outline, it all comes together

By: firespark

firespark — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:24:27 +0000

Wow. I think I’m having one of those “I’m not alone in the universe” moments. Thank you, Randy, for answering this question. And thank you, Molly, for asking it. I think you’ve helped me figure out how I need to approach this novel. I fluctuate between a crumbling plot (which happens after outlining) and panic at not knowing what’s coming next, but this explains so much. I think, as stupid as this sounds, I just needed permission to let it go, to bang out the first draft just as it comes to me,and *then* go back to work out the kinks in the second. This makes So. Much. Sense. Thank you.

By: Sheri Salatin

Sheri Salatin — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:42:51 +0000

This is me too. Every time I sit down to write out an outline of my book, I sit and stare at the screen for hours. However, when I sit down and start writing from my characters POV, the story just flows and things happen that I never even thought possible. I’m glad to know that I’m not doing it wrong. (grin)
So far, I’ve been outlining the story AFTER I write the chapter. It seems to make more sense to me.

By: Connor Dix

Connor Dix — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:01:59 +0000

I can’t do a detailed outline. To me outlining feels like I’m writing the book, and when I go to write, it feels like I’ve already done it. It sounds crazy, but that’s how my ADD brain works.

The outline for the novel I’m working on right now was three words, numbered, on a scrap sheet of paper. It’s truly the best outline I’ve ever worked from.

By: James Thayer

James Thayer — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:02:10 +0000

Some writers use lengthy outlines. P.G. Wodehouse’s outlines were often 30,000 words, about a third as long as the completed novel. Horror novelist John Saul’s outlines often run to a hundred pages. He described the process of writing the novel with the outline in front of him as filling in the blanks, which he can do in as little as thirty days. Edgar nominee Robert Irvine drafts a seventy-page outline, which includes dialogue, descriptions of the main characters, and the plot, chapter by chapter.
And other novelists don’t use outlines at all. Elizabeth Berg, who finds an outline too limiting. “It just doesn’t work for me to try to plot a novel. The few times I tried, it was as though the book rebelled—it went another way entirely, and then all those notes I’d taken to follow that ever-so-neat sequence of events I’ve planned were in vain.” Stephen King is convincing: “I distrust plot for two reasons; first, because our lives are largely plotless, even when you add in all our reasonable precautions and careful planning; and second, because I believe plotting and the spontaneity of real creation aren’t compatible. . . . My basic belief about the making of stories is that they pretty much make themselves” Maybe it’s nice to know that not one size fits all.

By: James Thayer

James Thayer — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:12:31 +0000

Here is Mark Twain’s entire outline for Tom Sawyer, according to his biographer, Justin Kaplan:

“1, Boyhood & youth: 2 y & early manh: 3 the Battle of Life in many lands: 4 (age 37 to [40?],) return & met grown babies & toothless old drivellers who where the grandees of his boyhood. The Adored unknown a [illegible] faded old maid & full of rasping, puritanical vinegar piety.”

By: Melissa Prado

Melissa Prado — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:25:06 +0000

“…faded old maid & full of rasping, puritanical vinegar piety.”

Hmm. I know a few of those, lol.

By: Adam Leigh

Adam Leigh — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:24:50 +0000

I am also the same as Molly. If I create a detailed outline, I end up getting stymied.

There was only one occasion where an outline helped me and that was when I was writing a story that took place over a set number of days and I had to work backwards to make sure I didn’t inadvertently make the characters cross large distances in an unrealistic amount of time (an intercontinental flight was involved).

Of course, even then, I tossed out the outline three chapters from the end and just pantsed it from there because I felt the tone had changed during writing and the original ending was too melodramatic.

So, I guess, what I’m saying is that Randy is right. Don’t fight your nature.

By: Elisabeth Treble

Elisabeth Treble — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:06:51 +0000

Amen to all that. Just today I tried to write an outline and I couldn’t get a scene down that wasn’t completely lame. Even though I knew-knew-knew what needed to happen next, if I tried to plan it out, nothing happened. Yay for stream-of-thought writing!

By: lawyers

lawyers — Thu, 14 Apr 2011 06:47:17 +0000

he worst thing you can do is to try to write using a creative paradigm that doesn’t fit you.

By: Alastair Mayer

Alastair Mayer — Sat, 16 Apr 2011 05:58:23 +0000

I just finished reading (and listening to, while my Kindle read it to me) WRITING FICTION FOR DUMMIES. Great book, I highly recommend it. (I’m still a relative newbie but I am published. I got some good tips from that book and didn’t see anything I’d particularly disagree with.)

I seat-of-the-pants’d my first novel (then reverse-engineered the outline, scene list, etc) but ran into trouble with that on the next couple, which were intended as a two-book series (would that be a biology?) A lot of stuff in the second had to be set up in the first, and I couldn’t do that without having at least an outline of the second before finishing the first. But that’s a special circumstance (and me being obsessive about detail). Plenty of writers do fine without an outline.

By: Christina

Christina — Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:58:51 +0000

Thanks so much for this blog reply Randy!

I had the exact same problem - outlining and planning took the life out my pantsing writing process.

I do keep all the elements of story architecture in mind while writing, but planning everything scene-by-scene, character-by-character not only blocked my creativity but took the joy out of writing.

Pantsing can work if you know the fundamentals well. And it’s wonderful to hear someone like you, Randy, embrace us writers who are pantsers instead of trying to convert us into planners:)

By: Barbara Weitz

Barbara Weitz — Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:17:35 +0000

Randy…Thank you! You’ve released me to be “me”! I’m a pantster with six panted books under my belt. The fifth published and is soon to be released. As a newish writer this bothered me as all I’ve heard is you need to outline before writing. Eager to learn and do it right, I tried it with the last book and had a great outline. Just couldn’t write the story and looked at a cursor for four months. Tossed outline and finished the story. Here’s where I was lucky over Molly. However, I’ve always kept a plot sheet of my chapters so I could find things when done and see a snapshot of story arcs and faults. I believe editing is harder for a pantster but the more I write the more I learn to pant a well-crafted story. Great blog! Thanks.

By: Siana

Siana — Sat, 23 Apr 2011 05:15:28 +0000

Not only does someone who writes without planning have company in the universe (hi, everyone!) there are whole communities of us out there on the internet. NaNoWriMo and all the other WriMo events (MayNo is coming up…) are equally populated with ‘planners’ and ‘pantsers’ so we always have sympathetic company. Also, we have a deadline. I’ve heard those can be useful…

By: Francis d.

Francis d. — Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:55:38 +0000

I don’t outline. But I understand why it is important to the process of writing, especially a longer piece. I think perhaps it is a case of knowing what the rules are so that you can then break them. Picasso could paint a mean bowl of fruit (that looked like a bowl of fruit!) before he challenged us with the likes of ‘Guernica’. He learnt what to do then said…’Nah, I’m doing it my way.’
I think the important thing is that Molly keeps writing the way she feels comfortable with, but that she takes on board what Randy said - finish the creative stream, and then be prepared to put in the slog when it comes to re-writes… which is where an understanding of the needs of the craft and structure of writing can come to the fore.
And at all times try and enjoy it!

By: Mary Fagan

Mary Fagan — Mon, 25 Apr 2011 18:54:18 +0000

Outlines are for magazine articles and scholarly treatises. Let the story flow out of you and go where it will. Let it take you over and explore places you never thought you’d go. (Yeah - that does run into extra research…) You can always take it back on the 2nd or 3rd rewrite.

By: Marian Clough

Marian Clough — Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:51:22 +0000

Thank you! Thank you! Both Molly–for asking this question–and Randy–for giving me the words to throw at my Internal Editor when she taunts me about not writing an outline.

I’ve always been ‘a seat-of-the-pants’ type of writer and artist. Rules for me are to be broken and if there is an outline to be produced, it’s always after the fact. But, I felt as though I was ‘in the closet’ on this issue. Now I’m freed!!! No more dark rooms!! LOL.

By: Samie

Samie — Thu, 28 Apr 2011 18:35:20 +0000

Oh thank god there are other people like me! I HATE outlining. I get so caught up in the outlining and planning that when it comes to writing the actual book, I have no idea what to do, or would rather go to the planning. (This is especially hard for me because I write fantasy, which involves world building, and that is a story in and of itself.)

I actually loved NaNoWriMo for this. The challenge is more concerned with word count than ‘readiness’ and it was a miracle for me. I just sat down every day and wrote, not worrying about structure or plot. Of course, I had a vague idea, but the focus was on the number, so I pumped out 20,000 words in three days by flying off the seat of my pants.

Since then I try to ignore outlining as much as possible, though I still try to spend some time on world building for consistency, but I limit it.

If you haven’t done NaNoWriMo, I’d suggest trying it. It’s in November and you can do all your pre-planning in the last week of October. See how much of a difference it makes. Especially if you’re doing it with friends and competing for numbers.

By: Claire L. Fishback

Claire L. Fishback — Mon, 09 May 2011 21:07:23 +0000

I know it is a little late, but I wanted to tell Molly when I write by the seat of my pants and get stuck it’s usually because something I JUST WROTE didn’t work right. Perhaps if she tried going back and looking at what she wrote she might find the key to unlocking the next round of frantic pants writing! Hope that helps!

By: Thom Linehan

Thom Linehan — Fri, 13 May 2011 15:00:57 +0000

I had an scant outline in my head so I wrote the first 30 chapters from that outline and that’s where I stopped for a year. I knew where I was going, but couldn’t get there……so I typed out a one or two line outline (scene) and started wrtiting (free hand, the computer makes me edit too much). When I finished 23 scenes I went to work and finished it in a month. I am a seat of the pants writer and in life, but now I’m editing, (seat of the pants and Snowflake Pro) and it’s starting to come together.

By: Lois

Lois — Tue, 17 May 2011 17:37:03 +0000

I’m a complete and total newbie/freshman. But I wondered, as I read Molly’s description and question, Randy’s reply and all comments above: if her character’s are telling her where they want to go and then stop, perhaps she needs to ask them more provocative questions. ? Just a thought.

By: Jeannie

Jeannie — Fri, 02 Sep 2011 21:04:38 +0000

“I can’t do a detailed outline. To me outlining feels like I’m writing the book, and when I go to write, it feels like I’ve already done it. It sounds crazy, but that’s how my ADD brain works.”

THIS EXACTLY!!! Thank you everyone… I think I have figured out what ONE of my many many problems are!