Comments on: Wrapping Up Those Manly Guy Characters http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/ America's Mad Professor of Fiction Writing Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:05:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.3 By: Katie Hart http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2611 Katie Hart Wed, 10 Oct 2007 08:18:29 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2611 Insightful discussion! One more observation - the upbringing of manly men. My brother grew up with seven sisters, and while that pushed him to be "the man of the family," he also has an uncannily dangerous ability to understand how women think. Insightful discussion! One more observation - the upbringing of manly men. My brother grew up with seven sisters, and while that pushed him to be “the man of the family,” he also has an uncannily dangerous ability to understand how women think.

]]> By: Daan Van der Merwe http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2613 Daan Van der Merwe Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:26:36 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2613 I don't know... About 40 years ago I saw a movie, "Tarzan of the Apes". During those years no sane man on this planet would have called Tarzan within earshot a wimp or a sissy. Yet he cried when some rogue hunter shot one of his ape buddies. BUT after about two minutes of crying Johnny Weismuller looked up, his eyes still filled with tears. I remember to this day the change of emotions in his eyes. From misery and sorrow to cold fury and hatred, his urge for revenge clearly visible. As Tarzan got to his feet me and my mates cheered and we couldn't wait for our hero laying his hands on that murderous bum. I don’t know… About 40 years ago I saw a movie, “Tarzan of the Apes”. During those years no sane man on this planet would have called Tarzan within earshot a wimp or a sissy. Yet he cried when some rogue hunter shot one of his ape buddies.

BUT after about two minutes of crying Johnny Weismuller looked up, his eyes still filled with tears. I remember to this day the change of emotions in his eyes. From misery and sorrow to cold fury and hatred, his urge for revenge clearly visible.

As Tarzan got to his feet me and my mates cheered and we couldn’t wait for our hero laying his hands on that murderous bum.

]]> By: Pam Halter http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2614 Pam Halter Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:48:08 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2614 I write for children and youth, so I appreciated the comment on how boys think like men. One of the advantages I have is my husband, who is a public school teacher, grades K-8. He's a great resource when I have to ask, does my character sound like a real 12 year old boy? Daan, I remember Tarzan reacting like that! It was great. I write for children and youth, so I appreciated the comment on how boys think like men. One of the advantages I have is my husband, who is a public school teacher, grades K-8. He’s a great resource when I have to ask, does my character sound like a real 12 year old boy?

Daan, I remember Tarzan reacting like that! It was great.

]]> By: Karla http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2615 Karla Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:54:22 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2615 As a mother of four boys (and one daughter) I can verify Randy's opinion that little boys morph into "manly boys" rather quickly. They might cry, yes, and they might even sit on Mom's lap for years past 4 or 5 but they would never admit it to their friends or be caught dead doing it by their friends. And by age 11, I can assure you that they are already consumed with thinking about food, sex, and blowing things up. The sleep is optional until they are teens and then you can never get them out of bed for school. My boys never went through a "girls are icky" stage. They have always loved girls. Even my autistic son (who is a twin) had one girl he would single out in his classes every year at school who was "his." This started at age three. Oh, and for the sake of the other men who insist football is an obsession, I think that depends on where you live. My boys are more obsessed with motorcycles and fast cars. Which is why their mother risked her life and limb to learn how to ride a motorcycle herself! Oh, and one more thing. I don't know about the stellar men on this list, but the men I live with are very uninterested in home decor unless it's a flourish of dirty clothes, dishes and smelly shoes and socks lying about the house. In that kind of decor they excel greatly. If you ever have a question about how to write a boy, give me a holler! I think I can help. :-) As a mother of four boys (and one daughter) I can verify Randy’s opinion that little boys morph into “manly boys” rather quickly. They might cry, yes, and they might even sit on Mom’s lap for years past 4 or 5 but they would never admit it to their friends or be caught dead doing it by their friends. And by age 11, I can assure you that they are already consumed with thinking about food, sex, and blowing things up. The sleep is optional until they are teens and then you can never get them out of bed for school.

My boys never went through a “girls are icky” stage. They have always loved girls. Even my autistic son (who is a twin) had one girl he would single out in his classes every year at school who was “his.” This started at age three.

Oh, and for the sake of the other men who insist football is an obsession, I think that depends on where you live. My boys are more obsessed with motorcycles and fast cars. Which is why their mother risked her life and limb to learn how to ride a motorcycle herself!

Oh, and one more thing. I don’t know about the stellar men on this list, but the men I live with are very uninterested in home decor unless it’s a flourish of dirty clothes, dishes and smelly shoes and socks lying about the house. In that kind of decor they excel greatly.

If you ever have a question about how to write a boy, give me a holler! I think I can help. :-)

]]> By: Jason http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2616 Jason Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:25:39 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2616 Diane asked about how young boys start thinking like a man. I have 3 boys, ages 7, 5 1/2, and 3. The two older boys already work hard at not crying in a lot of situations (unless there is significant pain involved). You can tell they want to, but they're trying to hold it back. I don't go around saying "don't cry" either. Somewhere it kicks in on its own. They also love football, GI Joes, and my 7 year old already has a bottomless pit. Thankfully they think girls are yucky still. Hope that helps. Diane asked about how young boys start thinking like a man. I have 3 boys, ages 7, 5 1/2, and 3. The two older boys already work hard at not crying in a lot of situations (unless there is significant pain involved). You can tell they want to, but they’re trying to hold it back. I don’t go around saying “don’t cry” either. Somewhere it kicks in on its own.

They also love football, GI Joes, and my 7 year old already has a bottomless pit. Thankfully they think girls are yucky still. Hope that helps.

]]> By: Lois Hudson http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2617 Lois Hudson Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:05:26 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2617 Although I have never written in a man's point of view, nor do I see any male POV characters in future projects, this discussion has been extremely helpful. Even when writing in the female's POV, she will interact with men. We can show the male characters by speech, facial expressions, actions and reactions. This exercise has been great to keep us focused on how our characters, male or female, can be made more believable by a look in the eye or a clenched fist. Besides Tarzan and Bruce Willis, what about Harrison Ford in Fugitive when he discovers his wife's body. Watching movies for just such depictions of emotion is another great exercise. Although I have never written in a man’s point of view, nor do I see any male POV characters in future projects,
this discussion has been extremely helpful. Even when writing in the female’s POV, she will interact with men. We can show the male characters by speech, facial expressions, actions and reactions. This exercise has been great to keep us focused on how our characters, male or female, can be made more believable by a look in the eye or a clenched fist.

Besides Tarzan and Bruce Willis, what about Harrison Ford in Fugitive when he discovers his wife’s body.
Watching movies for just such depictions of emotion
is another great exercise.

]]> By: Camille http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2618 Camille Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:22:21 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2618 Getting a little sociological now, are we? — I’ll play. Jason mentioned his young sons choosing to not cry. And I’m sure you’re right: you don’t go around saying, “Don’t cry”. I’ve raised 2 boys (now 20 & 22) and I’ve taught preschool for 10 years, ages 4-5. What I’ve observed, and don’t sue me or start throwing textbooks: parents and adults send messages to kids that shape their thinking, whether we know it or not. I don’t think I or my Manly Guy husband have ever told our sons not to cry. But they started being stoic about their tears early on also, and I wonder how many times our non-verbal communication or body language told them they should probably go ahead and suck it up. It was probably about the same time they started saying Mom instead of Mommy. We can’t help passing our coping skills, our insecurities, everything that shapes us—onto our kids. I have watched kids display a variety of social and emotional coping skills even in a preschool classroom. Parents teach by so much more than words, and too often without realizing it. Someone once expressed surprise to me that their 4th grade daughter was terrible a snob, but didn’t realize that they’ve been sending her messages all along by talking about the clothes people wear, ridiculing others and most importantly: displaying and passing on their own insecurities when they stress out to make sure they were above ridicule themselves. I don’t know what this has to do with writing—although the things that make people tick fascinate this wannabe psychologist and give my characters something to tell their therapist. Which I guess would be me. Getting a little sociological now, are we? — I’ll play. Jason mentioned his young sons choosing to not cry. And I’m sure you’re right: you don’t go around saying, “Don’t cry”.

I’ve raised 2 boys (now 20 & 22) and I’ve taught preschool for 10 years, ages 4-5. What I’ve observed, and don’t sue me or start throwing textbooks: parents and adults send messages to kids that shape their thinking, whether we know it or not. I don’t think I or my Manly Guy husband have ever told our sons not to cry. But they started being stoic about their tears early on also, and I wonder how many times our non-verbal communication or body language told them they should probably go ahead and suck it up. It was probably about the same time they started saying Mom instead of Mommy.

We can’t help passing our coping skills, our insecurities, everything that shapes us—onto our kids. I have watched kids display a variety of social and emotional coping skills even in a preschool classroom. Parents teach by so much more than words, and too often without realizing it.

Someone once expressed surprise to me that their 4th grade daughter was terrible a snob, but didn’t realize that they’ve been sending her messages all along by talking about the clothes people wear, ridiculing others and most importantly: displaying and passing on their own insecurities when they stress out to make sure they were above ridicule themselves.

I don’t know what this has to do with writing—although the things that make people tick fascinate this wannabe psychologist and give my characters something to tell their therapist. Which I guess would be me.

]]> By: Camille http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2619 Camille Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:25:51 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2619 BTW---I hunted all over RelevantBlog for the book "Lawry's Tears" and couldn't find it. Drat. I wanted to read the rest of the story. What would Mother think of Caroline? BTW—I hunted all over RelevantBlog for the book “Lawry’s Tears” and couldn’t find it. Drat. I wanted to read the rest of the story. What would Mother think of Caroline?

]]> By: Mary Hake http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2620 Mary Hake Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:22:21 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2620 Lots of good discussion on this topic. Do you think it's more of an American man thing or not so cultural? I know some cultures are quite different, and if we have a character from one he should be portrayed accurately. Lots of good discussion on this topic. Do you think it’s more of an American man thing or not so cultural? I know some cultures are quite different, and if we have a character from one he should be portrayed accurately.

]]> By: Lynda http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2621 Lynda Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:42:00 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2621 Randy, please do include a lesson on this topic in your 301. Hope its out before Christmas since it is on my Christmas list. :-) When a dear man from India (who attended the International Church within our church) passed away, I was amazed at the men who spoke at the funeral. They were professional men from all over the world, and every one wept unashamedly. I do prefer our "cowboys", but perhaps I am conditioned to. Randy, please do include a lesson on this topic in your 301. Hope its out before Christmas since it is on my Christmas list. :-)

When a dear man from India (who attended the International Church within our church) passed away, I was amazed at the men who spoke at the funeral. They were professional men from all over the world, and every one wept unashamedly. I do prefer our “cowboys”, but perhaps I am conditioned to.

]]> By: D. E. Hale http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2622 D. E. Hale Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:41:28 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2622 Thanks Randy, that makes sense now. I think I've got it figured out - at least for today. Tomorrow may be a different matter. Ha! It's a good thing that I'm married to a very manly man. I'll just let him read my novel when I'm finished, and he can point out all the places my MC falls short. Thanks Randy, that makes sense now. I think I’ve got it figured out - at least for today. Tomorrow may be a different matter. Ha! It’s a good thing that I’m married to a very manly man. I’ll just let him read my novel when I’m finished, and he can point out all the places my MC falls short.

]]> By: Colleen http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2623 Colleen Wed, 10 Oct 2007 18:50:21 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2623 This has been a helpful topic for me, as I have youthful males in my story, but no young males in close proximity. When you decide to move on to a new topic, I've got a suggestion: plot problems. Here's mine: My protagonist’s heroic quest endangers her family. Fearful and less naïve now, she sets the goal aside to protect those she loves,but can’t forget it. Eventually she regains her courage and acts on her beliefs—but only after a considerable amount of time has passed and she's become too miserable to ignore the quest. During this gestational period, she pursues safer goals and tries to avoid making waves that might jeopardize her family’s safety. Her internal pressure builds to do the right thing, but there’s little external conflict, which leads to the dreaded “sagging middle” of the story. Any thoughts on how I can allow her character to develop without losing the story’s momentum? This has been a helpful topic for me, as I have youthful males in my story, but no young males in close proximity. When you decide to move on to a new topic, I’ve got a suggestion: plot problems. Here’s mine: My protagonist’s heroic quest endangers her family. Fearful and less naïve now, she sets the goal aside to protect those she loves,but can’t forget it. Eventually she regains her courage and acts on her beliefs—but only after a considerable amount of time has passed and she’s become too miserable to ignore the quest. During this gestational period, she pursues safer goals and tries to avoid making waves that might jeopardize her family’s safety. Her internal pressure builds to do the right thing, but there’s little external conflict, which leads to the dreaded “sagging middle” of the story. Any thoughts on how I can allow her character to develop without losing the story’s momentum?

]]> By: Lizzie http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2624 Lizzie Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:42:49 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2624 I watched "She's the Man" today, where Amanda Bynes impresonates her twin brother. It really helped my thinking in this area. Daan! I noticed some of your word choices and wondered where you're from. Then I noticed your surname! Is it common where you're from? I have a friend named Shaun from South Africa w/ that exact surname. Are you related, somehow or do you know him? I watched “She’s the Man” today, where Amanda Bynes impresonates her twin brother. It really helped my thinking in this area.

Daan! I noticed some of your word choices and wondered where you’re from. Then I noticed your surname! Is it common where you’re from? I have a friend named Shaun from South Africa w/ that exact surname. Are you related, somehow or do you know him?

]]> By: Daan Van der Merwe http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2626 Daan Van der Merwe Thu, 11 Oct 2007 06:42:47 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2626 Very common! In fact, the surname "Van der Merwe" in South Africa is as common as "Smith" is in England. There are lots of Van der Merwes over here who are not even remotely related to me but no, I'm afraid I don't know a gentleman named Shaun Van der Merwe. Although most Van der Merwes are Afrikaans speaking, there are quite a number of Eglish speaking ones as well. I guess that explains my English word choices: A mixture of James Hadley Chase, Sydney Sheldon and Ken Follet. Vitually no Shakespeare I'm afraid! Very common! In fact, the surname “Van der Merwe” in South Africa is as common as “Smith” is in England. There are lots of Van der Merwes over here who are not even remotely related to me but no, I’m afraid I don’t know a gentleman named Shaun Van der Merwe.

Although most Van der Merwes are Afrikaans speaking, there are quite a number of Eglish speaking ones as well.

I guess that explains my English word choices: A mixture of James Hadley Chase, Sydney Sheldon and Ken Follet. Vitually no Shakespeare I’m afraid!

]]> By: Anna http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2634 Anna Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:36:22 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2634 I've really been enjoying reading all this about "Manly Guys." I beg to differ. I think that even manly guys feel pain a lot, and they sometimes aren't ashamed to show it. I've been reading The Iliad, and I seem to recall Hector crying over his wife and baby boy. THE ILIAD!!! That's one of the oldest fiction books there is...poetry books...and one of the main characters is caught crying. I can't remember for certain, but if he wasn't crying than he was at least upset. It depends on the story, doesn't it? A modern story, set in the 21st century probably wouldn't have many men crying in it. More classic books, older ones, books set in 'earlier' times, might have men crying, whether they're ashamed of it or not. What about when somebody dies? Is crying permitable then? I probably wouldn't have men crying unless they were in such total shock that they couldn't help it or if somebody close to them died. I know that guys don't feel pain like girls do, and they're more afraid to show it, but I honestly think that crying is pretty embaressing. Anna I’ve really been enjoying reading all this about “Manly Guys.” I beg to differ. I think that even manly guys feel pain a lot, and they sometimes aren’t ashamed to show it. I’ve been reading The Iliad, and I seem to recall Hector crying over his wife and baby boy. THE ILIAD!!! That’s one of the oldest fiction books there is…poetry books…and one of the main characters is caught crying. I can’t remember for certain, but if he wasn’t crying than he was at least upset. It depends on the story, doesn’t it? A modern story, set in the 21st century probably wouldn’t have many men crying in it. More classic books, older ones, books set in ‘earlier’ times, might have men crying, whether they’re ashamed of it or not. What about when somebody dies? Is crying permitable then? I probably wouldn’t have men crying unless they were in such total shock that they couldn’t help it or if somebody close to them died. I know that guys don’t feel pain like girls do, and they’re more afraid to show it, but I honestly think that crying is pretty embaressing.

Anna

]]> By: Keira http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2640 Keira Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:51:12 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2640 Thank you so much for addressing the issue of writing a Manly Man. I believe it's helped reveal a significant flaw in some past pieces I have attempted (which failed). Not only that, but you managed to do so in a way that didn't make me discouraged, but rather just amused at the whole thought. I will certainly make sure to pass on your wisdom to other aspiring authors I may come across. Thank you so much for addressing the issue of writing a Manly Man. I believe it’s helped reveal a significant flaw in some past pieces I have attempted (which failed). Not only that, but you managed to do so in a way that didn’t make me discouraged, but rather just amused at the whole thought.
I will certainly make sure to pass on your wisdom to other aspiring authors I may come across.

]]> By: Holly http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2644 Holly Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:28:26 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2644 You know, you could make t-shirts: My POV is Manly Man. How's that for conversation starters? On second thought... You know, you could make t-shirts: My POV is Manly Man. How’s that for conversation starters? On second thought…

]]> By: Holly http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2645 Holly Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:29:48 +0000 http://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/blog/2007/10/09/wrapping-up-those-manly-guy-characters/#comment-2645 Oh, forgot to add...subtle hint on the high-concept discussion? Oh, forgot to add…subtle hint on the high-concept discussion?

]]>